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Post by oldsalfordian on Apr 6, 2016 12:41:03 GMT
Old Salfordians Memorial A R Payne Alfred Ridges Private Manchester Regiment 1/6th Battalion 3048 died 7/8/1915 Gallipoli CWG Panel 158 to 170 Helles Memorial Probate Alfred Ridges Payne of 128 Weaste Lane Salford Private Manchester Regiment died on or since 7/8/1915 while in actual military service Administration Manchester 28/8/1916 to Albert Alfred Payne Hoist Manufacturer effects £109 0s 3d H Pickering Harold resident Worsley Private Lancashire Fusiliers 1/6th Battalion 10703 died15/5/1915 CWG Age 21 son of Thomas and Harriette Ann Pickering of Alder Cottage Worsley Panel 58 to 72 or 218 to 219 Helles Memorail E Pickwick Henry Ewart born Salford enlisted Salford Private Lancashire Fusiliers 2/5th Battalion 58508 died 24/8/1918 CWG Age 18 son of William and Sarah Pickwick of 3 Cooper St Higher Broughton 11.A.2 Houchin British Cemetery W Postlethwaite can not link one Wendy I am delighted to report that the CWGC have corrected their entry for 2nd Lt. William Postlethwaite, died of wounds 14th March 1918, who had previously been recorded as Postlewaite. I tried to get it put right in 2010 and thought I had a strong case but they rejected it. I recently made an entirely new case, supported by copies of eleven contemporary documents, the offer of four more should they need them and the backing of his regimental museum. The case I put forward was stronger thanks SWARM, as I had been able to find his name on two other Salford memorials, both of which strongly supported the other evidence. His old boys' association, his college (Leeds Training College), his employer (Salford Borough Education Department) and his church (St. Luke's, Weaste) have all given him a proper memorial, and now at last the nation has. I have asked for a new headstone to be cut for him and await confirmation that this will be done. William is one of 74 on our memorial of whom 66 have been identified for sure. The School was still young in 1914 and William was one of only four of the 66 who had got as far in life as marrying. Of those he was the only one to have a child, a daughter Joyce. The chances that one the unidentified 8 married are not high, and the chances that one of them had a child are very low. Using birth, marriage & death databases to work forwards in time instead of back, I have established that Joyce, who would be 98 today, lived to marry during WW2 and have children of her own, but I have not been able to trace them. I would like to, as being the only descendants of 66 men on our memorial makes them rather special people. Old Salfordian |
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Post by shred on Apr 9, 2016 9:19:33 GMT
I am delighted to report that the CWGC have corrected their entry for 2nd Lt. William Postlethwaite, died of wounds 14th March 1918, who had previously been recorded as Postlewaite. I tried to get it put right in 2010 and thought I had a strong case but they rejected it. I recently made an entirely new case, supported by copies of eleven contemporary documents, the offer of four more should they need them and the backing of his regimental museum. The case I put forward was stronger thanks SWARM, as I had been able to find his name on two other Salford memorials, both of which strongly supported the other evidence. His old boys' association, his college (Leeds Training College), his employer (Salford Borough Education Department) and his church (St. Luke's, Weaste) have all given him a proper memorial, and now at last the nation has. I have asked for a new headstone to be cut for him and await confirmation that this will be done. William is one of 74 on our memorial of whom 66 have been identified for sure. The School was still young in 1914 and William was one of only four of the 66 who had got as far in life as marrying. Of those he was the only one to have a child, a daughter Joyce. The chances that one the unidentified 8 married are not high, and the chances that one of them had a child are very low. Using birth, marriage & death databases to work forwards in time instead of back, I have established that Joyce, who would be 98 today, lived to marry during WW2 and have children of her own, but I have not been able to trace them. I would like to, as being the only descendants of 66 men on our memorial makes them rather special people. Old Salfordian Thank you for posting Old Salfordian and well done in providing all the evidence required to pursued the CWGC to make the correction. To save me going through this thread again would you kindly post the names of the 8 men left to be definitively identified? Thanks in advance. |
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Post by shred on Apr 9, 2016 19:46:29 GMT
There seems to be a glitch on this thread, so I have added this post to make page 8 of this thread viewable.
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Post by oldsalfordian on Dec 27, 2016 17:39:39 GMT
I am delighted to report that the CWGC have corrected their entry for 2nd Lt. William Postlethwaite, died of wounds 14th March 1918, who had previously been recorded as Postlewaite. I tried to get it put right in 2010 and thought I had a strong case but they rejected it. I recently made an entirely new case, supported by copies of eleven contemporary documents, the offer of four more should they need them and the backing of his regimental museum. The case I put forward was stronger thanks SWARM, as I had been able to find his name on two other Salford memorials, both of which strongly supported the other evidence. His old boys' association, his college (Leeds Training College), his employer (Salford Borough Education Department) and his church (St. Luke's, Weaste) have all given him a proper memorial, and now at last the nation has. I have asked for a new headstone to be cut for him and await confirmation that this will be done. William is one of 74 on our memorial of whom 66 have been identified for sure. The School was still young in 1914 and William was one of only four of the 66 who had got as far in life as marrying. Of those he was the only one to have a child, a daughter Joyce. The chances that one the unidentified 8 married are not high, and the chances that one of them had a child are very low. Using birth, marriage & death databases to work forwards in time instead of back, I have established that Joyce, who would be 98 today, lived to marry during WW2 and have children of her own, but I have not been able to trace them. I would like to, as being the only descendants of 66 men on our memorial makes them rather special people. Old Salfordian Thank you for posting Old Salfordian and well done in providing all the evidence required to pursued the CWGC to make the correction. To save me going through this thread again would you kindly post the names of the 8 men left to be definitively identified? Thanks in advance. I apologise for the great delay in responding. 66 of the 74 have now been identified with complete confidence. In trying to identify the remaining 8, it is easy to rule out many possibilities on the grounds of age – they were too old to have attended a secondary school founded in 1904. Also, the School was then largely fee-paying, so, a deceased man’s peacetime occupation or his family’s social circumstances often make it very unlikely he was our man – the pupils at the School became clerks, teachers & the like, not coalminers, labourers and the like. Of the 8 unidentified, there are strong candidates for three, shown with an asterisk below. Like 62 of the 66 men identified, these three were young and unmarried. However, I have little or no clue who the other 5 were.
J. EvansThere are 500 men called J. Evans on the CWGC website and several on local war memorials, and there were a score of boys called J. Evans in Salford in 1911. No hope unless we find a direct reference to our School. * F. JamesHe attended our School from 1904-07, suggesting he was born in about 1892. In May 1915 he was said to be serving with the 1st City Battalion of the Manchester Regiment. This unit is properly known as the 16th (Service) Battalion, Manchester Regiment, 1st M/c Pals. This hasn’t proved sufficient information to identify him in the CWGC records. However, he might be John Frederick Arthur James. 8195 Lance Corporal James died on 2nd July 1916, the second day of the Somme, serving with the 17th (rather than the 16th) Battalion of the Manchester Regiment (2nd M/c Pals). He was 24, and his burnt army record suggests he went straight into 17th Bn. (Until recently the CWGC had this guy wrongly indexed as JPA James.) I have no evidence that JFAJ was known as Frederick, but he was born in 1892, which is an excellent match, and in 1911 the family were living at 80 Elleray Road, Pendleton. His father was a forwarding clerk with a laundry engineering firm, and JFAJ was a clerk to a shipping company, so it was very much the kind of family that sent boys to our School. Significantly, his 20 year old sister was a student teacher, and I have been struck by how many guys on our Memorial had a sister who was a teacher – they came from comfortable and enlightened homes where education was valued for the daughters as well as the sons. There is evidence the Army discovered they had lost touch with JFAJ’s next of kin, eventually tracing them to Southport. If this is our man, this might explain why he seems to have no memorial in Salford other than ours. J. OldhamHe attended our School from 1904 to 1907, which means he was probably born in about 1892. In May 1915, he was said to be serving with the 1st Manchester City Battalion (16th Service Battalion), of the Manchester Regiment, 1st Manchester Pals. There is no match on the CWGC website. Six Monton lads enlisted together into the 20th Bn. 5th M/c Pals in November 1914. Four were killed on or about the First Day of the Somme, one was seriously wounded and one was unscathed. At least three of the six had attended our School. The service numbers I have identified so far are 17035, 17080, 17112 and 17160. It’s a long shot, but a Pte. Joseph Oldham of the same Bn. with the service number 17183 died of wounds on the second day. Might the May 1915 report placing him in the 1st Pals have been wrong, and might he have been one of the six Monton pals in the 5th Pals? * A. RichardsI think this may well be 301582 Private Thomas Arthur Richards who was KIA on 26th April 1918 while serving with the Tank Corps. He was 19 and known as Arthur, according to the newspaper report of his death. He was born in 1899, the son of Edwin & Mary Richards, of 684, Bolton Road, and in the 1911 his father gave his occupation as master tailor. His sister was a student teacher – see my comments about James above. Again, this was just the kind of family that might send a boy to our School, and many of its pupils came from Pendlebury, Swinton & Worsley. Also, he attended Salford Royal Technical Institute in 1914/15, so it is entirely possible that he arrived at the RTI having “crossed the corridor” from our School, which shared the same building and much else besides with the RTI. The School prepared appropriate boys for further studies at its sister institute, and in 1910 it was said that half the students at the RTI had been through our School. The School and the RTI were commonly confused and each was sometimes referred to as the Technical School, so a careless reference to the RTI might in fact be a reference to our School, and vice versa. Arthur is also remembered on the family gravestone in Swinton Cemetery. E. RobertsI’m clutching at straws here. A Corporal Ernest Roberts was KIA on 2nd May 1915 serving with the 1st Battalion of the King’s Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment), and a military record says he was born in Salford. However there is nothing I can see to link him or any other E. Roberts to our School. A. ShepherdA complete mystery. War memorials may be carved in stone and cast in bronze, but they were the work of Man, and they were as prone to error, omission, bias and misunderstanding as all his other works. Might the name A. Shepherd have been a misunderstanding and a mistaken duplication of Asa Sheppard on the Memorial? H. Smith1,225 men called H. Smith on the CWGC website. I once favoured the H. Smith who was killed on 20th July 1916 with the 20th Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers, because our School was said to have lost three men that day in that Bn. but I have identified only two. However, I now think this was Harold Smith of Calderglen, Colne, with no sign of any connection to Salford. * T. WoodI think this may well be L/24123 Bombadier Thomas Wood who was 24 and unmarried when he was killed on 15th June 1917. He was born in 1893, his father was later recorded as a butcher working on his own account, and they lived at 339 Worsley Road, Winton, Patricroft. Thomas became a clerk with the L&NWR. In the newspaper report of his death he was said to have been an old scholar of Worsley School and the Royal Technical Institute – see my comments about Richards above. Finally, my thanks go to everyone who has posted information on this website, without which this kind of investigation would not be possible. Old Salfordian |
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Post by shred on Dec 28, 2016 13:37:12 GMT
Old Salfordian,
Many thanks for the update. I will take a look at the names left and see if we are able to identify any of the remaining names over the next few weeks.
There was an article printed in the Salford Reporter on the 05/06/1915. I will try and get to the library in the New Year and see if the article gives the definitive link.
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Post by shred on Dec 28, 2016 13:45:03 GMT
The below image shows a boy named "Shepherd" (unfortunately no initial given) in form 1A, 1912/13. Would these boys be 10/11 years old and would they have been old enough to serve before the end of the war?  |
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Post by shred on Dec 28, 2016 15:16:39 GMT
There was a report published in the Salford Reporter on the 15/09/1919. I will get a copy in the New Year.
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Post by shred on Dec 28, 2016 15:30:28 GMT
Can't see this being the correct man.
SDGW gives
Name: Joseph Oldham
Birth Place: Hyde, Cheshire
Residence: Hyde
Death Date: 2 Jul 1916
Death Place: France and Flanders
Enlistment Place: Manchester
Rank: Private
Regiment: Manchester Regiment
Battalion: 20th Battalion
Regimental Number: 17183
War Gratuity paid to his sister Ethelinda.
1901 shows the family living in Hyde.
1911 shows the family living in Hyde and details that the 19 year old Joseph is working as a cotton spinner.
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Post by shred on Dec 28, 2016 15:59:24 GMT
Private 6918 John Oldham who had first joined the 16th Manchester Regiment was commissioned on the 30/10/1917 and sent to the 6th Royal Warwickshire Regiment.
CWGC:
OLDHAM, J
Rank:Second Lieutenant
Date of Death:19/04/1918
Regiment/Service:Royal Warwickshire Regiment 6th Bn.
Grave Reference: I. E. 22.
Cemetery:ST. VENANT-ROBECQ ROAD BRITISH CEMETERY, ROBECQ
Additional Information:Son of Mr. J. Oldham, of 232, Fog Lane, Didsbury, Manchester.
SDGW:
Name: John Oldham
Death Date: 19 Apr 1918
Rank: 2 Lieutenant
Regiment: Royal Warwickshire Regiment
Battalion: 6th Battalion (Territorial)
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
His medals were sent to his wife, Mrs J Oldham (Widow), 21 Vicarage Rd, Handsworth, Birmingham.
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Post by shred on Dec 28, 2016 20:29:40 GMT
A little more on John Oldham. Occupation: Foreman Builder Birth: Melbourne, Australia Attested 2/9/1914 (16th Manchesters) aged 22 years and 7 months. Commissioned 30/10/17 Father: Charles Oldham, 55 Kearsley Road, Crumpsall Married: Elsie Adelaide Norbury at St Matthews, Crumpsall (cannot find children) Remembered on the St Matthews memorial link1901 census - nephew of David Oldham, Stapleton St, Pendleton. 1911 census - a visitor, aged 19, at 2 Claremont Road, Pendleton.  |
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Post by shred on Dec 29, 2016 13:09:25 GMT
Some more information on John Oldham. Father: Charles Henry Oldham. The 1911 census shows him and his wife, Ann Helena (nee Cottam), as visitors at 22 Swinton Park Rd, Pendleton. Occupation - Builder/Contractor (employer). His father had been a prominent man in Australia link and link |
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Post by shred on Dec 31, 2016 16:39:45 GMT
H Fielding Harold Telegraphist Royal Naval Reserve HMPMS "Newbury" died 15/2/1918 CWG Age 21 Son of Mr and Mrs E Fielding of 4 Hugh Oldham Drive The Cliff Higher Broughton A4 4317 Salford Weaste Cemetery Wendy  |
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Post by shred on Jan 1, 2017 18:26:04 GMT
Old Salfordian, This man is worth a closer looking at for H Smith. HERBERT FREDERICK SMITH Rank:Lance Corporal Service No:7056 Date of Death:13/08/1917 Age:27 Regiment/Service:Manchester Regiment 16th Bn. Grave Reference: III. B. 26. Cemetery:ABBEVILLE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION Additional Information:Son of Harry and Martha Ellen Smith, of Manchester; husband of Annie M. Smith, of 3, Anne St., Cheetham Hill, Manchester. 1911 census: Name: Herbert Frederick Smith Age in 1911: 20 Estimated birth year: abt 1891 Relation to Head: Son Gender: Male Birth Place: Cheetham, Manchester, Lancashire, England Civil Parish: Broughton County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street address: 85 George Street Broughton Salford Marital Status: Single Occupation: Insurance Clerk Henry Charles Smith 48 (Cotton Piece Dyers Representative) Martha Ellen Smith 50 Harry Enderwick Smith 25 (Commercial Clerk) Nellie Broome Smith 24 (School Teacher)Herbert Frederick Smith 20 (Insurance Clerk)Albert Noel Smith 14   |
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Post by oldsalfordian on Jan 4, 2017 2:06:55 GMT
H Fielding Harold Telegraphist Royal Naval Reserve HMPMS "Newbury" died 15/2/1918 CWG Age 21 Son of Mr and Mrs E Fielding of 4 Hugh Oldham Drive The Cliff Higher Broughton A4 4317 Salford Weaste Cemetery Wendy A report in the Salford Reporter of 21 Feb 1918 said much the same thing, but by then Harold's body had been conveyed to his parents, and it went on: "The body arrived at Lower Broughton from Dover on Wednesday night. The interment took place at Weaste Cemetery on Thursday afternoon. It was a quiet affair, but at the graveside were gathered many friends of the deceased. There was a service at the house, Hugh Oldham Drive, taken by the Rector of the Church of the Ascension, Lower Broughton, where the deceased had been a chorister for many years before his enlistment. The Rev. M. Davies, B.D., also officiated at the cemetery. A remembrance service is to be held at the Church of the Ascension." In addition to the Old Salfordians memorial, Harold’s name is on the war memorial at the Church of the Ascension, Lower Broughton, and he is one of at least eight Old Salfordians remembered on the memorial at St. John’s Church, Higher Broughton. His name is also on the Dover Patrol (Trawlers & Minesweepers) Memorial, now in the Dover Museum, and it is in the Dover Patrol Book of Remembrance associated with the Dover Patrol Obelisk overlooking St. Margaret’s Bay. The grave reference in Weaste Cemetery is A4_4317. (He is not the only one I have found on five memorials like this - several of the guys on our memorial each appear on at least three more memorials other than their CWGC memorial.) Harold was one of 12 killed that day on the "Newbury", which survived the war to be sold in 1922 and scrapped. Old Salfordian |
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Post by oldsalfordian on Jan 4, 2017 16:48:08 GMT
Old Salfordian, This man is worth a closer looking at for H Smith. HERBERT FREDERICK SMITH Rank:Lance Corporal Service No:7056 Date of Death:13/08/1917 Age:27 Regiment/Service:Manchester Regiment 16th Bn. Grave Reference: III. B. 26. Cemetery:ABBEVILLE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION Additional Information:Son of Harry and Martha Ellen Smith, of Manchester; husband of Annie M. Smith, of 3, Anne St., Cheetham Hill, Manchester. 1911 census: Name: Herbert Frederick Smith Age in 1911: 20 Estimated birth year: abt 1891 Relation to Head: Son Gender: Male Birth Place: Cheetham, Manchester, Lancashire, England Civil Parish: Broughton County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street address: 85 George Street Broughton Salford Marital Status: Single Occupation: Insurance Clerk Henry Charles Smith 48 (Cotton Piece Dyers Representative) Martha Ellen Smith 50 Harry Enderwick Smith 25 (Commercial Clerk) Nellie Broome Smith 24 (School Teacher)Herbert Frederick Smith 20 (Insurance Clerk)Albert Noel Smith 14 In my message of 27 Dec 2016 I said I had found strong candidates for 3 of the 8 unidentified men. I think this Herbert Frederick Smith now makes that 4 out of 8. He is clearly a strong candidate for our H Smith, not least because he had a sister who was a teacher. Many thanks for bringing him to my attention. He seems to have been born on 24th July 1890 and he married Miss Annie Maud Smith in 1915. There were one or two Smith/Smith children born locally thereafter, but that may not be significant as Smith/Smith marriages have always been relatively common. Someone with a now lapsed subscription to Ancestry has posted details of the descendants of Annie and her second husband George William Harding whom she married in 1919, but they don't record any children from her previous marriage to Herbert Frederick Smith. (Annie was fortunate indeed to find a spare unmarried man in 1919, and a lack of children probably helped; my wife's grandmother, who had five children, lost her husband at Passchendaele and was a widow thereafter for 63 years.) Old Salfordian |
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