Have SWARM been wasting their time

[bomber]

Please post your comments here and send them to salfordadvertiser.co.uk

If they are so well documented, why are we unable to find them, why are the public unable to find them, and as far as I know, there are very few photos about, for the public to access.

Attachments:

[shred]

Debs,

To the best of your knowledge did you or Emma ever use the word lost to describe the memorials housed in the Museum? Or is this a word used by the journalist? We know that the picture shown in the article was incorrect and the article didn't cover all the points made to the reporter.

We have already discovered some of the memorials added to the National Inventory of War Memorials have been moved and the Inventory is out of date. We are in communication with a gentleman who covers a large area of Manchester/Salford for the NIoWM and he agrees that there are more memorials out there that have yet to be documented. The NIoWM, by their own admission, have limited time, man-power and funds. I have contacted them three times over the last three months about a particular memorial and the names listed there on, I have yet to receive a reply.

If bringing to light the condition that some of these memorials are in and trying to get them restored is a waste of time, then I shall continue to waste my time.

[bomber]

Not sure if we used the word lost to those in the museum, I don't think we did. We would have said generally that some of Salfords War Memorials were lost, also the rolls of honours, which is one of the reasons we set up SWARM, to locate the lost memorials, and to transcribe and preserve existing Memorials.

I agree that I will continue wasting my time, A. because its my time to waste B. We are giving the Salford Public a Service, by providing info and more importantly, PHOTOS. and C. WE are preserving Salfords History, especially these MEN

Of to waste some more of my time transcribing from some of the photos I took yesterday

[Spitfire]

This is a copy of the email I gave to the advertiser:

"Hi XXXXX,

I've sent an email requesting permission for you to publish the Greengate memorial photo, I will let you know as soon as I hear back.

Background to SWARM, I've made it as brief as I can:

Earlier this year I began researching my family history and when I discovered a photograph in the archives of the Whit Lane WW1 street memorial which listed my great grandfather, I wanted to visit the memorial to pay my respects but I was saddened to learn that the memorial was long since “lost” and so I began to make enquiries about what had happened to it.

During the course of my enquiries I learned that several memorials had been “lost” and that the GREENGATE memorial had alarmingly, in recent years, ended up in a skip destined for the rubbish tip. The realisation that this was happening prompted Debbie, Garry and myself to begin project SWARM (Salford War Memorials)

Garry has a personal interest in the REGENT SQUARE memorial, his website: www.regentmemorial.talktalk.net/

Debbie has an interest in the Salford Association memorial after she heard it was under the stage at Buile High School - this memorial is due to be unveiled and re-dedicated on November 14th by the Mayor.

SWARM has the following aims:

· To photograph, index and research all named individuals on war memorials throughout the ever changing, ever expanding City of Salford - from the heart of Salford to the further outlying towns such as Little Hulton.
· To locate the whereabouts/establish what happened to the lost/missing memorials
· To preserve and protect memorials in danger of demolition so that they can be appreciated by future generations.
· To restore and repair memorials where necessary.
· To ensure that memorials are proudly displayed in places which are easy for the public to access

There are many memorials throughout Salford, some of the large monuments such as the Agecroft Miners Memorial will be obvious to the public, they probably pass them everyday but there are other memorials which were originally in churches, streets and places of work and these are often the ones that are missing. We are aware that the museum hold several memorials in their cellars and SWARM will be visitng the museum shortly to photograph and index them but we believe they should be out on display - a cellar is not a fitting place of remembrance.

We hope to get Salford to be the first council in the country to write a clause in their constitution to protect all memorials in Salford. If developers wish to buy certain buidings, graveyards etc... then they will need to arrange for the safe removal and restoration of any memorial within the lands boundaries.

We hope that the church authorities, the council and developers will be willing to work with us to ensure that these memorials are treated with the care and respect they deserve, these historical memorials form a significant part of our heritage and the people named on them deserve to be remembered with honour.


We are having an open day at Pendleton Gateway, room 1 on Thursday October 28th 1.30-4.00pm. There will be people dressed as authentic WW1 Tommy soldiers, a small bric-a-brac stall and a raffle to help us raise some much needed funds. Refreshments will also be available.

Please don’t hesitate to contact me if I can help any further

Emma Harrison, Co-Founder of SWARM"

[Spitfire]

Thanks for phoning me Debs and letting me know about this letter of complaint in the Advertiser. Unfortunately there will always be people who do not understand why we are doing this and who do not wish to support our efforts but that is their choice. I would hope that Dr Hughes has taken the time to visit these forums and our newly launched, work in progress website before constructing their letter of criticism. There are many people who DO actively support and encourage the SWARM project and it is for those people and for myself that I will continue to waste my own valuable time despite the opinion of one person who has the luxury of spare time to write to the newspaper.

I can tell you that the word "lost" was not used to describe the cellar memorials...what I actually put in the email to the newspaper is posted above in full and it states "We are aware that the museum hold several memorials in their cellars and SWARM will be visiting the museum shortly to photograph and index them but we believe they should be out on display - a cellar is not a fitting place of remembrance." I still stand by the fact that a cellar is not the place to keep them and many items which are fragile etc etc are displayed in museums (think about Egyptian mummies for one!) We had meeting with the museum manager recently and it is not the condition/fragility which is an issue it is the fact that they do not have enough space for display. We know that the newspaper article was short, we commented to each other on the length of the article on the day it was published and we also know the advertiser didn't get the photos correct.

The newspaper was given was given a lot of info and has only used a small amount of that info to create a short/small article...what it didn't mention is the "lost" memorials such as the Whit Lane one, the St George's one etc. We have pages of lost/missing ones here on the forums and we are asking the community for information about them. There ARE lost memorials it's just that the article did not get this across and perhaps because the article had to be so short because of restricted space in the newspaper that particular week the whole SWARM message has not come across. Again, I hope that Dr Hughes has taken the time to look at the forums and the website as that tells everyone so much more about who we are and what we are doing - it is impossible to tell everything about such a monumental task in a short newspaper article.

Further points I wish to make are:

The UKNIWM does have errors, we all know that.

There is nowhere on the internet which has an easily accessible database of every man listed on each memorial in Salford

Where else on the internet can you see photos of so many of the Salford memorials, usually in great close up detail...certainly not the UKNIWM

Where else on the internet can you ask local Salford volunteers who are dedicated to researching the men involved in war to go and photograph Salford war graves, specific panels on memorials or to assit with research (and we do more than that too!)

Nobody else produces a book of remembrance for each memorial.

Nobody else is actively working to preserve and restore these memorials.

When I was looking for the Whit Lane one and I made inquiries at the museum I got nowhere, indeed many other people I had spoken to had also found the same problem...perhaps things were different in 1999.

I don't think that just because one of the ten memorials from the cellars was on display at Ordsall Hall "in the last decade" is anything to shout about, I actually think it's very sad that the statistic is so low - my daughter who has an interest in these things wasn't even here in the world a decade ago. The museum has expressed that they would like SWARM to hold open evenings and do talks about these memorials next year where all the memorials can be brought up for people who are interested to have a look at them. The museums manager was very supportive of our project in our recent meeting with him - I think he is probably very well placed to make a judgment on whether or not we are wasting our time and he thought SWARM was a fantastic idea!

We have huge support from highly respected people such as Pete Thomas, Neil Drum, Mack, the gentleman who Garry has mentioned above (I respectfully will not post his name on an open forum) I think that gentleman is probably the most qualified person to judge us given the amount of his time/life that he has dedicated to the cause of indexing and drawing memorials in Salford.

Nobody else is actively concerned about the future of memorials such as the one at Central Mission.

I could go on but I won't...we have built a good working relationship with the council, the diocese, the museums, individual churches, community projects (Salfords Lost Streets/Streets Museum) etc. All these people and groups support our project and that means a lot more to me than one letter in the Salford Advertiser. I'm passionate about this project, I believe in us, I'm proud of what we have achieved so far and I will continue to SWARM no matter what

[prospectroad]

Unfortunately because you're out there in the public there will always be the odd knockdown but every time there is, think about the 99.99% of hugely positive comments and support that you receive all the time. I think this gent has probably got hold of the wrong end of the stick, possibly through some mis-wording in the newspaper. Remember he'll be someone who cares about these memorials so I'd try and get him on side if possible. In the meantime have a thick skin and don't take it to heart, you're all doing a wonderful job.

Regards
Pete

[Hawker Hurricane]

The article in the Salford Advertiser (Thursday, November 11, 2010, page 27) referred to our visit to the Salford Museum's Archive Store as being to look at 'lost' memorials. This is a minor error of wording by the article's writer. We have never referred to them as such, as obviously they are not lost, their location is known.

Unfortunately Dr. Hughes has decided to nit-pick, without bothering to engage with anyone from SWARM to ascertain the facts before putting pen to paper. And for the record, with one exception which was deposited with the musuem in a very poor state, the other memorials could be permanently displayed in a proper museum gallery environment without detriment to their condition. The only barrier to this is provision of a suitable gallery space. And yes, we were also able to access and consult the collection without difficulty, and we have never stated otherwise. However, this may not be possible or practical for some people who may be interested in them.

In addition to working to help ensure the preservation and conservation of surviving memorials, another aim of SWARM to make the complete details of every War Memorial in Salford freely available to everyone, wherever they are. There may be descendents of people named on these memorials for whom a visit to Salford is not possible or practical. By photographing, recording, transcribing and indexing the memorials, and making the fullest details possible globally accessible, we are not only honouring the memories of those who served, and those who fell, we are also working to help everyone be able to see the memorials, even if they can't come to Salford in person.

The UKNIMW have done a sterling job recording the locations and statuses of war memorials, and we have already been in communication with them. However, many of the records they have available do not include a list of the names of the men. This is one of the things we are working to make available, complete with researching the details of the men wherever possible. In this way we hope to create a one-stop resource for future researchers and historians.

One letter from a 'Dr.' who has made no effort to ascertain any facts about SWARM before writing a letter to a newspaper in response to one brief article, does not fill me with any confidence in his or her abilities at research, his or her analytical abilities, nor his or her methodology for arriving at conclusions.

I for one will continue to 'waste my time' on our very worthwhile cause, and will hold my head high with pride to be a part of the team that are making the most comprehensive record of Salford's War Memorials openly and freely available for all, and for future generations.