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Post by davexxx on Nov 8, 2011 11:10:58 GMT
I have been unable to trace the [any ?] service records for Robert Barnes born ca 1900 in Salford, living with parents pre-WWI in Lower Broughton. There is only a brief transcript on Ancestry, which has led me to this corresponding CWGC reference: 11949 King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) 6th Bn. Date of Death: 06/10/1915 Alexandria (Chatby) Cemeterywww.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=108202Unfortunately, there is no age shown on the grave, which might give a clue. Does anyone know where I could find further information which would confirm/disprove that the CWGC entry refers to the same person ? TIA Dave.
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Post by Hawker Hurricane on Nov 8, 2011 11:40:10 GMT
Possible his were among the large number destroyed accidentally during WWII. Could try the newspaper next time we're down at Salford Local History Library. I can't get there until next week at the earliest if noone else is going sooner. There was often a little bit of biographical info and a small photo published, so always worth a look.
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Post by davexxx on Nov 8, 2011 12:14:46 GMT
... Could try the newspaper next time we're down at Salford Local History Library... Many thanks, much appreciated. I've looked in the Manchester Guardian (online) for that year, and although many service names are listed, I couldn't readily trace anything relevant. Dave.
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Post by shred on Nov 9, 2011 20:43:51 GMT
Dave,
Welcome to the forum, thanks for joining us.
I have checked the Salford Reporter & Eccles Journal and I am sorry to say that is no mention of Robert, I may have missed him so it would be good for Jim to double check. I can also tell you that there isn't a mention in the Manchester Evening News either.
The following entry on Soldiers Died Great War suggest that he died due to an illness.
Name: Robert Barnes Birth Place: Salford, Manchester Death Date: 6 Oct 1915 Death Location: Mesopotamia Enlistment Location: Manchester Rank: Private Regiment: King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) Battalion: 6th Battalion Number: 11949 Type of Casualty: Died Theatre of War: Asiatic Theatres
We shall continue the search.
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Post by davexxx on Nov 10, 2011 9:26:26 GMT
Dave, Welcome to the forum, thanks for joining us ... We shall continue the search. Many thanks. I don't know whether this helps, but, for another family elsewhere, their 'Roll of Honour' notice in the local newspaper for a CWGC death of 31st August 1918 (Croix-Rouge Military Cemetery, Quaedypre, France) was published on the 12th September, i.e., about a fortnight later. Another snippet: William - an elder brother of the person we are trying to trace - also served in KORLR (No. 7955, joining the Royal Lancaster Regiment 1903, born St. Matthias). He survived WWI and has 'Egypt 1914-1916' under Campaigns, Medals & Decorations. Dave.
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Post by shred on Nov 10, 2011 12:48:13 GMT
Dave,
I checked the papers from the date of death up to 3 months later. I have always had the impression that the Salford Reporter relied on a relative/friend of the service person to contact them before they reported a death, if no one got in touch the death may only be shown in large lists of casualties.
Garry
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Post by davexxx on Nov 10, 2011 13:13:07 GMT
Garry - thanks, again. With a birth year of around 1900, I wonder whether it would have had any bearing on the likelihood of being publicised ?: "An estimated 250,000 British teenage boy soldiers enlisted under-age in 1914 to 1915, which is 10% - 15% of total volunteers. An estimated 120,000 of these were killed ..." Search military records - WW1, WW2, Boer War (Findmypast.co.uk) www.findmypast.co.uk/MilitaryXdbStartSearch.jspDave.
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mack
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 481
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Post by mack on Nov 10, 2011 15:21:08 GMT
reporting deaths. when a soldier is reported missing,enquiries are made to see if hes amongst the wounded in hospital or mixed up with another unit,when these enquiries are exhausted,they then make out a casualty list,which is sent to the war office,who then make their own enquiries to the red cross,to determine whether hes a POW,if they draw a blank,they then contact the NOK and inform them that hes missing,they only tell their families hes dead if they have proof or reasonable proof,and after a certain period of time has elapsed,they declare him dead,if a soldier dies in hospital,a telegram is sent straight away to the mans regimental records office,who inform the NOK. there are several different casualty lists that are sent to the war office from the front,these are a couple
1.killed in action 2.missing 3.wounded and missing 4.died of wounds 5.died 6.wounded
no casualty list of POWs is ever sent from the front,because the COs of the mans unit dont have that information,this is only obtained by weeks/months of enquiries through the red cross via the german red cross
it can take months or longer to be certain of his fate,i've come across soldiers being declared dead,years after they disappeared,heres an example,after the 2nd manchesters made an attack on 20th october 1914,many men were reported missing,their NOK were not informed they were missing until 21st december 1914
mack
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Post by shred on Nov 10, 2011 22:00:12 GMT
Some interesting information you have provided there Mack. Thank you. The more I learn the less I seem to know.
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Post by davexxx on Nov 11, 2011 10:26:33 GMT
I've analysed the CWGC casualty data for the Alexandria Cemetery, by age at death and by regiment, and also included a list of KORLR entries, attached. ALEXANDRIA (CHATBY) MILITARY AND WAR MEMORIAL CEMETERY Analysis of Age at Time of Death (Age in Years vs. Number of Casualties) WW1 Total = 2231 Deaths (inc. 996 unknown age ) WW2 Total = 439 Deaths (inc. 94 unknown age) WW1+WW2 Total = 2670 Deaths (inc. 1090 unknown age) WW1 Teenage Deaths (15-19) = 175 = 7.8% (of 2231) WW2 Teenage Deaths (18-19) = 24 = 5.5% (of 439) Overall: Age band with most deaths = 20 Years of Age (158 deaths) Age range = 15 to 60 Dave. Attachments:
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Post by davexxx on Nov 12, 2011 21:29:59 GMT
I've traced this medal card:
Barnes Robert R Lanc R Pte 11949
Victory - Roll H/2/103B5 Page 597 British - -do- -do- 15 Star - Roll H/2/3B Page 152
Theatre of War first served in: 5a) Asiatic Date of Entry therein: 13-6-15 Remarks: Dead
Dave.
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Post by shred on Nov 13, 2011 15:25:09 GMT
Dave,
Date of entry 13/06/1916 - Death 06/10/1915... less than 4 months after arriving. I hope that we can find some information somewhere.
Have you thought about getting Robert's death certificate? I think Jim may be able to find an overseas reference
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Post by davexxx on Nov 14, 2011 9:08:29 GMT
... Have you thought about getting Robert's death certificate? ... Garry, 1915 BARNES ROBERT 11949 Pte. R.Lancs. Vol I.19 Page 15I'm not familiar with the format of certificates for death in WW1 service - do you know if it is likely to carry sufficient detail to trace parentage ? (e.g., home address and/or next of kin, etc.) Dave.
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Post by Hawker Hurricane on Nov 14, 2011 10:36:34 GMT
I'm not familiar with the format of the certificates either and don't know exactly what information is recorded on them. Normal death certificates do not always show parents etc. and often the only clue is in who registerd the death. In this case, the notifying person will probably be an army officer, and therefore this may provide no clue.
I am going to Salford Local History Library on Wednesday, so will see what I can find out.
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Post by shred on Nov 14, 2011 16:27:01 GMT
Dave, I have only applied for two overseas certificates and they were both very basic with no details of parentage. I thought that the age and cause of death may have been of interest to you though. Let's see if Hawker discovers anything on Wednesday. In the meantime an email to the KORLR museum may be in order, contact details can be found on the following web page www.kingsownmuseum.plus.com/enquiries.htm
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