Thiepval Memorial quesiton - BBC Somme doc

[Colin Fraser]

Anyone know why two of the soldiers highlighted in the joint German/BBC doc on the 2nd Salfords at Thiepval are not listed on the memorial as July 1 casualties? I see Pvt Mellor of the 2nd Salfords shown as a casualty of July 1 but Pvt Fiddes and Corp Sharples were also actual 16 LF soldiers, also lost on July 1. Perhaps they are listed as non-July 1 casualties? The doc in question is on you tube as "The Somme - From Defeat to Victory."

Colin

[shred]

Colin,

What a coincidence! I am currently re-reading Salford Pals by Micheal Stedman, I had just been reading page 125 which describes Private Fiddes being shot whilst trying to leave the trench to obtain instructions from Battalion HQ when you posted this message.

I do not know why Private Fiddes and Corporal Sharples names are omitted from the memorial. I also do not know why John Slidders who died on the 23rd Sept 1917 is included. I can only say that I have seen many errors and omissions on the memorials that SWARM have recorded.

Private Fiddes' name is on the scrolls that hang in the Sacred Trinity Church:


As is the name of Corporal Sharples:


The documentary "The Somme - From Defeat to Victory" has been posted on the St Mary's Memorial (which has the names of Thomas Mellor, Walter Fiddes and Stephen Sharples) thread. Click here to see the documentary.

I would be interested in other forum members opinions on this.

[shred]

Colin,

it would appear that the A Mellor on the memorial must be Thomas Mellor as the only A Mellor to die with the Lancashire Fusiliers died in 1918. As I stated in my last post errors were made.

[Colin Fraser]

Thanks Shred - I would have thought that something as important as that would have been heavily validated but I guess it was hard to do in the days before internet CWGC and SWARM :-)

BTW I just watched the same doc on youtube in German and it not the same film. The German version has much more focus on the defence and on the German personailities shown in the BBC film. Also I just noticed that I have in my collection a copy of General Franz von Soden's signature without even knowing it - on the back of a photo signed by about 40 officers of a Bavarian Heavy Cavalry Regt c. 1929....a personal souvenir once owned by Claus Schenk Graf von Staufffenberg, who attempted to kill Hitler on July 20, 1944, and also signed by Stauffenberg as well.

Colin

[shred]

Apr 22, 2013 2:21:31 GMT Colin Fraser said:

Thanks Shred - I would have thought that something as important as that would have been heavily validated but I guess it was hard to do in the days before internet CWGC and SWARM :-)

BTW I just watched the same doc on youtube in German and it not the same film. The German version has much more focus on the defence and on the German personailities shown in the BBC film. Also I just noticed that I have in my collection a copy of General Franz von Soden's signature without even knowing it - on the back of a photo signed by about 40 officers of a Bavarian Heavy Cavalry Regt c. 1929....a personal souvenir once owned by Claus Schenk Graf von Staufffenberg, who attempted to kill Hitler on July 20, 1944, and also signed by Stauffenberg as well.

Colin

I will try and find the German version and give it a watch.

Please feel free to post a scan of the photo and signature, sounds fascinating. May be worth a few dollars too.

[Colin Fraser]

Sure thing. I expect it certainly is worth a bit as Stauffenberg is one of the rarest of WWII signatures.

This is the most interesting historical piece in my collection. The photo is of a reunion dinner of 1st Bavarian Heavy Cavalry Regiment in 1929. Stauffenberg's Uncle Berthold was the Colonel in WWI and he has signed as well. The back of the photo is also signed by 4 other officers involved in the resistance against Hitler (von Marogna Redwitz and von Leonrod were executed at Ploetzensee), and Anton Arco auf Valley, the 1919 assassin of Bavarian PM Eisner.

1 Eckart Anton von Pappus und Trazberg Freiherr Zu Laubenberg und Rauhenzell
2 Richard Walther
3 Berthold Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg
4 Ferdinand von Kobell
5 Hans Freiherr von Koenitz
6 Hartmann Maria Frhrr von Ow Auf Wachendorf
7 August Freiherr Teuffel von Birkensee
8 Karl Wilhelm Leonhard Czermak
9 Franz Freiherr von Soden
10 unknown 10
11 unknown 11
12 Stephan Freiherr Reichlin von Meldegg
13 Graf Anton Alfred Emil Hubert Georg Arco Auf Valleÿ
14 Hans Erwin August Friedrich Bresselau von Bressensdorf
15 Oskar Frieherr Kress von Kressenstein
16 Heinrich Freiherr von Koenitz
17 Heinrich Freiherr von Aretin
18 Franz Freiherr Redwitz
19 Leonard (or Hans) Räth
20 Joseph Ernst Hermann Theodor Karl Maria Erbgr. Fugger von Gloett
21 Karl Graf von Moy
22 Karl Freiherr Von Speidel
23 Carl Max Graf Von und Zu Sandizell
24 Ludwig Freiherr von Leonrod
25 Ferdinand Maren Harthard Antoius Michael Josef Prinz von Der Leyen und Zu Hohen Geroldseck
26 Franz Freiherr von Pfetten
27 Albert Freiherr Aretin
28 Robert Karl Banfield
29 Claus Philipp Maria Justinian Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg
30 unknown 30
31 Freiherr von Ribaupierre
32 Otto Freiherr Von Kramer
33 Karl August Friedrich Freiherr von Bonnet Zu Meautry
34 Josef Fries
35 Rudolf Graf von Marogna-Redwitz
36 Karl Georg Bernhard Ritter von Gonnermann
37 Maximilian Freiherr von Mauchenheim Genannt Bechtolsheim
38 unknown 38
39 Ferdinand Graf von Arco-Zinneberg
40 Claus von Stauffenberg's personal stamp

Here's the youtube link to the first part of the German version of the documentary.

Colin

[shred]

Colin,

What an amazing piece of history. Thank you for sharing it with us.

I am off to watch the first part of the German version of documentary, then I may watch Valkyrie (I wonder what brought that on).

Garry

[Colin Fraser]

Actually the much maligned Valkyrie is IMO one of, if not the, most accurate historical picture ever filmed - uniforms, sets, casting, dialogue, and plot (no pun intended) are all accurate except for some minor combining of characters and and minor changes in evens for dramatic effect. Put this down to the fact that Professor Peter Hoffmann, a world renowned expert on Stauffenberg and the resistance, volunteered to act as unpaid historical advisor in the interests of getting the movie right. The producers showed the good judgment to actually listen to him. Hoffmann is a professor at McGill University in Montreal and is very generous with his time and expertise. He has assisted me frequently.

Colin

[shred]

Colin,

I found the following article in the Eccles Journal 28th July 1916. The article states that Corporal Stephen Sharples is missing.



The Eccles Journal RoH index would seem to suggest that the paper did not report the deaths of Sharples and Fiddes until 1917 (see attached images hereunder). I am wondering if this has some bearing as to their names being omitted from the memorial?

[Colin Fraser]

Interesting and yes that makes a lot of sense.

Thanks

Colin