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Post by paul888 on Feb 19, 2018 15:23:34 GMT
I am trying to find out if there is any record of my grandfather Harry Turner (no middle names), born 10th April 1875 and who, according to the 1911 census, lived at 336 Eccles New Road Weaste, ever serving in any of the Salford Pals battalions in the Great War.
His occupation given on the census form is that of Fireman at the Manchester Ship Canal Co. He would have been 39 years old at the start of the war and I have been advised that, being a fireman, he might have been in a reserved occupation. Is there any way I can verify this?
Thank you to anyone who posts
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Post by shred on Feb 20, 2018 21:26:02 GMT
Hi Paul, It may be extremely difficult to say if your Harry Turner served during WW1. The Ship Canal Roll of Honour does name a H Turner, but it is not guaranteed to be your H Turner. We have identified the following Harry Turners named on the 1918 Absent Voters List. Absent Voter: 1918 West Division, Salford, Lancs. Harry Turner - Qualifying Premises: 11 Belmont Street - Just off Eccles New Road Polling District: W.O. Description of Service: 10028 Sgt., 52nd K. L'pools. Register: Absent Voters List 1918, Entry 6524 Absent Voter: 1918 West Division, Salford, Lancs. Harry Turner - Qualifying Premises: 3 Nadine Street - Off Langworthy Road Polling District: W.H. Description of Service: 266893 Pte., 1/6th Welsh Register: Absent Voters List 1918, Entry 4540 Absent Voter: 1918 West Division, Salford, Lancs. Harry Turner - Qualifying Premises: 75 Seedley Park Road - Off Liverpool Street. Polling District: W.H. Description of Service: 40145 Sergt., 17th Lancs. F. Register: Absent Voters List 1918, Entry 465 I will see of I can find any further info on the 3 men found in the Absent Voters List.
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Post by shred on Feb 20, 2018 21:55:23 GMT
Paul,
One of our members had previously posted
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Post by paul888 on Feb 22, 2018 9:48:14 GMT
Dear Shred
You are brilliant, thank you...
Yes, according to the 1939 "ration book" census, my grandfather later did live at 11 Belmont Street Salford. This address was also shown on my father's marriage certificate.
As I mentioned, in the 1911 census, he lived at 336 Eccles New Road and listed his occupation as Fireman, so very likely he was the Sgt Harry Turner who served in the 52nd K Liverpool's. That is amazing! My father never spoke about him although the topic of the Great War wasn't often raised.
Thanks to the other member who posted. I will now do some research on the 52nd Liverpool's.
Thank you once again for your help.
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Post by shred on Feb 22, 2018 10:06:20 GMT
Paul,
Hold off the research on the Liverpool Regiment. There are many errors on the Absent Voters List and I am sure that the medal index card for your Harry stated that his main regiment was the Lancashire Fusiliers. In work at the moment so will check tonight.
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Post by paul888 on Feb 22, 2018 10:40:14 GMT
Thanks understood. Will await further.....
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Post by shred on Feb 22, 2018 19:27:20 GMT
Harry Turner served with the 15th Lancashire Fusiliers (1st Salford Pals). His MIC: Harry pictured along with other Sergeants of the Pals battalions: So I am quite sure that the mention of Harry receiving shrapnel wounds to the back is your Harry. You may want to download the 15th Battalion war diary from here. There is a good chance that the diary may mention his wounding (unless it happened on the 1st July 1916).
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Post by paul888 on Feb 22, 2018 20:35:22 GMT
Many many thanks Shred..
The jigsaw pieces seem to fall into place and I will research the 15th's military history.
Over the years, I had a gut feeling that he must have served as most men from the Weaste area joined their work pals in Lancashire regiments. I was just concerned about his age, 39 at the start of the war being too old. Perhaps that's why he was made a sergeant.
Would you know what the 15 Star medal relates to?
Coincidentally, I worked for the Manchester Ship Canal Co 1963-64 and also served in the RAF 1965 to 1970. A similar life to him!
A wonderful piece of research on your part. It has given me much pleasure to have an answer...
Thank you very much.
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Post by shred on Feb 23, 2018 12:16:45 GMT
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Post by paul888 on Feb 23, 2018 15:42:45 GMT
Shred
Thanks for the above....
I'm just going through the excellent publication 'God's Own' 1st Salford Pals. Harry's entry in the glossary shows him as among: Wounded on 1st July, 1916. That is really interesting as most of the 1st were wiped out on that day.
As you may know, his address is shown as... (later 11 Belmont Street Weaste) which tallies with my father's marriage cert. It also states that from 1918 he was with the King's Liverpools which explains the entry on the absent voters list for 1918. Finally, in the index at the back, his entry Turner Pl/Sgt Harry 10028, 2/A-(Hugh on Pal Roll) perhaps he was recorded as Hugh as well. I'm glad I found all this.
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Post by shred on Feb 24, 2018 20:26:53 GMT
Paul,
There was a Hugh Turner (10983) who served with the same battalion. Hugh is shown as Private in the Salford Brigade Roll of Honour and later promoted to the rank of Sergeant. Unfortunately Hugh was KIA on the 5th June 1918
From SDGW: Name: Hugh Turner Birth Place: Salford, Lancs Death Date: 5 Jun 1918 Death Place: France and Flanders Enlistment Place: Salford Rank: Sergeant Regiment: Lancashire Fusiliers Battalion: 15th Battalion Regimental Number: 10983 Type of Casualty: Killed in action
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Post by shred on Feb 24, 2018 20:28:39 GMT
Another must read is Michael Stedman's Salford Pals: 15th, 16th, 19th and 20th Battalions Lancashire Fusiliers: A History of the Salford Brigade.
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Post by shred on Feb 24, 2018 20:54:15 GMT
A few bits with regards to family history.
Marriage: 9 Mar 1898 St Bartholomew, Salford, Lancashire, England Harry Turner - 22 Shellfish Dealer Bachelor of 51 Regent Road Lillian Lewis - 19 House Keeper Spinster of 155 Ordsall Lane Groom's Father: John Turner, Shellfish Dealer Bride's Father: William Lewis, Police Constable Witness: Zebedee Fletcher; Mary Lewis Married by Banns by: G. W. Petherick Register: Marriages 1897 - 1901, Page 15, Entry 25 Source: LDS Film 1786465
Baptism: 24 Sep 1899 St Bartholomew, Salford, Lancashire, England Lilian Turner - [Child] of Harry Turner & Lilian Born: 27 Aug 1899 Abode: 51 Regent Road Occupation: Oyster Dealer Baptised by: G. W. Petherick Register: Baptisms 1898 - 1900, Page 84, Entry 672 Source: LDS Film 1786461
Baptism: 9 Aug 1905 All Saints, Weaste, Lancashire, England Edith Turner - [Child] of Harry Turner & Lilian Abode: 16 Trent Street Occupation: Labourer Baptised by: Hy. Evans Register: Baptisms 1903 - 1915, Page 16, Entry 126 Source: Manchester Central Library
Baptism: 16 Jan 1910 Stowell Memorial, Salford, Lancashire, England John Turner - [Child] of Harry Turner & Lillian Abode: 336 Eccles New Road Occupation: Labourer Baptised by: W. K. Smyth Register: Baptisms 1905 - 1912, Page 199, Entry 1585 Source: LDS Film 2357994
Baptism: 2 Aug 1911 St Luke, Weaste, Lancashire, England Harold Turner - [Child] of Harry Turner & Lilian Abode: 336 Eccles New Rd. Occupation: Labourer Baptised by: P. Belshaw Register: Baptisms 1911 - 1915, Page 14, Entry 111 Source: Manchester Central Library
Baptism: 19 May 1915 St Luke, Weaste, Lancashire, England Frederick Turner - [Child] of Harry Turner & Lilian Abode: 11 Belmont St. Occupation: Soldier Baptised by: P. U. Mulliner, Curate Register: Baptisms 1911 - 1915, Page 135, Entry 1074 Source: Manchester Central Library
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Post by paul888 on Feb 27, 2018 7:23:28 GMT
Thanks for the family information.
I didn't know about John. He must have been the child who passed away, as recorded on the 1911 census. My father who was born in 1908 appears to have been baptised as Harold but was always known as Harry. Interestingly, my uncle Freddie (Frederick) who was blind was baptised when Harry was already a soldier. Probably he was in training by then.
I'm going to collect Michael Steadman's book today and I'm looking forward to delving through it.
Thank you again Shred. You have been most helpful.
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Post by paul888 on Feb 28, 2018 14:45:18 GMT
From Michael Steadman's book: In the Battalion Rolls, Harry was in A Company, Platoon Sergeant of Platoon No II, 65 men, led by Platoon Commander 2nd Lieut C. F Harwood. Would there be any record of what happened to 2nd Lieut Harwood? Presume kia as out of the 15th's 24 officers/650 men on 1st July 1916, only 3 officers/201 men survived, the rest were missing.
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