mack
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 481
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Post by mack on Apr 28, 2012 0:23:23 GMT
i can understand why some people are angry when they recieve replies like steves,but there are reasons why the army are careful about sending out soldiers records,some of these soldiers were involved in troubles in ireland and the war in greece against the AOKA,some people have long memories and may want to settle old scores,not all these soldiers are dead,and even if they were deceased,their families could still be at risk,my pal finished his second tour of ireland and shortly after,he left the army after completing his service,2 years later,someone tried to access his army records on two occasions,the MOD warned him about it,it turned out to be his ex missus looking for money,but it could quite easily have been the BOYOS from across the water,with regards to not giving out his NI number,thats because its private,NI numbers are only the business of the person its issued to and the other reason is that you can practically locate exactly where someone is if you had their NI number,the army are only being over cautious to protect the soldier and his NOK.
the MOD will not send any sensitive info from your relatives records,because its still under the defence of the realm act,but you should get all the rest of his service info[warts and all]
steve,good luck,you should be ok with the docs you have sent them,i like your style,i NEVER give up when i'me in the right either
mack
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steveboler
Sergeant
Never give up, its out there.
Posts: 68
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Post by steveboler on May 11, 2012 13:16:43 GMT
Gentlemen, Just got a reply from the MOD, 10 pages of their "rubbish" on how to apply for Military Records and my letter, plus enclosures and a request to re-send with the appropiate £30 fee. "There is no charge to widows or widowers" (most probally deceased by now - smart move! "All other enquirers are charged £30, which is non-refundable". So to complain:- 1. To the Disclosures Manager. (if not satisfied, then) 2. Independant Internal Review. (if not satisfied, then) 3. Information Commissioner under the sec.50 Freedom of Information Act. So there is plenty for to go at and if I remember right there is no legal defination of next of kin in english law, but (I'm sane) under the Mental Health Act there is a clause defining next of kin. So gentlemen let the battle begin, costs me nothing!! Keep you posted on developments.
Steve
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Post by shred on May 11, 2012 22:06:06 GMT
Steve,
You could be on your way to setting a precedent. Hope you get there, let us know if we can help.
Best wishes.
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Post by Spitfire on May 15, 2012 9:40:34 GMT
Steve, I am watching this thread with interest as my mum would like to get hold of her father's WW2 service records...good luck and please do keep us up to date with what steps you take, what replies etc as I am sure this thread will be useful to many people
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steveboler
Sergeant
Never give up, its out there.
Posts: 68
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Post by steveboler on Jun 2, 2012 21:00:58 GMT
SERVICE RECORDS
To keep you up todate.
Just to let you know I am still waiting for a reply from the MOD (Stage 1 Appeal). I quoted the Mental Health Act, Sec.26; HMRC Inheritance Tax (Inheritance Law) and European Court of Human Rights:- 1. Spouse 2. Son or Daughter
Wonder why they are taking time to answer? Let you know soon as they reply.
Steve
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steveboler
Sergeant
Never give up, its out there.
Posts: 68
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Post by steveboler on Jun 20, 2012 10:01:03 GMT
Here is the reply from the first Appeal for the records. The £30 fee does not cover the research. If they have name,d.o.b. place of birth and army serial number where is all the research that costs in excess of £30. Widows/widowers, won't be many left now. Family of soldiers who died in the war - thats another limitation. Not satisfied and now proceed to Appeal 2, if nothing else the fee should be reduced with full details. Keep you posted. Steve PS. Just noticed attachment did'nt work. Gary e-mail you with same - do you your magic. thanks
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Post by shred on Jun 20, 2012 19:49:16 GMT
Steve,
I presume that you have mentioned the Freedom of Information act? If so, what was the answer to that?
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steveboler
Sergeant
Never give up, its out there.
Posts: 68
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Post by steveboler on Jun 21, 2012 12:48:22 GMT
Hi, Yes when I mentioned the 3 Acts I also mentioned the FOI Act and that I should have access to these records. Their reply as above. See the letter in the e-mail I sent you. They make no referal to the Acts and to me they blindly "carry on" and disregard what I said in certain points. Still think £30 is a hefty fee wait and see what Appeal N°2 says and if no result then Appeal N° 3. If that does not work higher up we go!! B.M.D.Certificates etc. (£10, or more for some documents) Too much of paying for documents that need a flip of of a "wet thumb". These people are being paid by the Tax Payer to do what? Sit on their ........ drinking coffee and then screw us.
Steve
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Post by Hawker Hurricane on Jun 21, 2012 15:17:50 GMT
As I mentioned previously, Freedom of Information Act has no relevance as these are personal records of an individual and as such are excluded from the provisions of that Act. There is no 'right' of access to any personal records (of any age) with the exception of the provisions of the Data Protection Act which provides access to an individual to records about themselves only.
The Freedom of Information Act and the Data Protection Act both permit the charging of "reasonable" fees for admin, copies, etc. But neither defines what is "reasonable".
With regard to BMD Certificates, the £10 fee for England and Wales is set Nationally. This is determined br the Registrar General's office, which is under the Home Office. You are, in effect, paying for the Registrar's signature. As the present law stands, the only way to get the full information from the Register is to buy a "Certified Copy". There is currently a campaign to make non-certified copies (no registrar's signature and therefore cheaper) available for research purposes, as it is in Eire. This will require a change in the Civil Registration Act for England and Wales, approved by both Houses of Parliament. The laws, processes and charges are separate for Scotland, Northern Ireland, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands as each has its own separate structure for Registration.
Some Registrars are calling for the provision of 'research' certificates to be abolished. This would restrict providing of copy certificates to entries relating directly to the applicant only. We all pray that doesn't come about. Paying £10 is better than not being to get them at all. :/
Sent from my Sony Ericsson LT15i Xperia Arc using the ProBoards Android App.
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Post by shred on Jun 21, 2012 21:17:25 GMT
Thanks Jim,
I was interested in whether or not the subject had been broached with the MOD and their response to it.
A totally different scenario:
If a public office has records that are in the public domain, but are not stored locally do the same rules apply? I ask because I have been told that if you request to view such records and the public office ask for a fee you can ask for the records to be produced under the FOI act free of charge i.e. It is not the fault of the enquirer that the records are unavailable locally.
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Post by shred on Jun 21, 2012 21:19:53 GMT
Steve,
I have noticed that you have removed the letter that you asked me to post. Was this intentional? If not, would you like me to repost?
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Post by Hawker Hurricane on Jun 21, 2012 23:18:38 GMT
I don't know about MoD response, but as mentioned, the short answer is that as they are personal records FoI is not applicable. Certain information can also be refused under the Act if its disclosure would breach security or potentially endanger safety, for example.
In answer to your question, no, if the records are openly available in the public domain the FoI does not apply. FoI relates to non-personal (with a small number of recent exceptions) information not routinely made publicly accessible. So for example, if you are in Salford and want publically available information that is held in London, for example, the you do have to either go to London to view, or pay for copies to be provided.
Where information IS valid under the FoI, if the records are not available to view locally, then a charge can be made to obtain/provide copies, or direction given to access them elsewhere. The Freedom of Information Act does not mean that records have to be accessed/provided free of charge.
Like most legislation, it is very complex, and therefore most organisations or institutions have a FoI officer responsible for dealing with FoI requests. The biggest problem is abuse of the Act, due to people often invoking it to get research provided and collated that they are simply too lazy to do themselves. (I've had several blatant instances from university students -basically trying to use FoI to get other people to tldo the hard work towards their degree for them!) :-(
I do not profess to be a total expert, by the way. I have working knowledge of the relevant legislation to records as part of my job. However, full information can be obtained from the Office of the Information Commissioner (on direct.gov.uk) or the FoI Officer of any local authority or Government department.
Sent from my Sony Ericsson LT15i Xperia Arc using the ProBoards Android App.
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steveboler
Sergeant
Never give up, its out there.
Posts: 68
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Post by steveboler on Jun 22, 2012 9:38:51 GMT
Steve, I have noticed that you have removed the letter that you asked me to post. Was this intentional? If not, would you like me to repost? Please repost, I mucked it all up by mistake. Thanks, Steve
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steveboler
Sergeant
Never give up, its out there.
Posts: 68
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Post by steveboler on Jun 22, 2012 9:40:53 GMT
Hi hawker, Just read your posts in regard to records. Looks like I'm going to be flogging a dead horse on this one, but will try just in case. Thanks for the info.
Steve
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Post by Hawker Hurricane on Jun 22, 2012 12:01:44 GMT
It's always worth persevering. As you are direct descendent being the son of the soldier in question, it is always possible they may waive the fee as a 'good-will' gesture, so it is worth a try. I am aware of cases where this happened, so it would not be without precedent. I will continue to keep everything crossed for you.
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